Curse

Amity and Truth · Nov 23, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Cass
Please stop heating up the discussion by subliminally insulting people and throwing in elitist attitude. Your point is valid as it is your opinion, but sentences like "Deal with it!" or "Embrace it" and your general choice of words is aggressive. Keep it civil.

Thank you.

Cass · Nov 23, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Cass
Please stop heating up the discussion by subliminally insulting people and throwing in elitist attitude. Your point is valid as it is your opinion, but sentences like "Deal with it!" or "Embrace it" and your general choice of words is aggressive. Keep it civil.

Thank you.

I honestly do not see the insults in "deal with it". Telling me that I have an elitist attitude is fine?

Anyway, just to give you some background. I have obviously also noticed the change in kiting behaviour. So when I took my warrior into Elona (where it seems to happen more, but maybe I am imagining that) I did encounter the problem of running after (speed-boosted) foes and being unable to kill them effectively. This also tended to result in over-aggro, just as others described here.
As I see it, there are two choices then. One is to come here and whine about this supposed bug. The other is to realize the change is intentional and reasonable from a gaming perspective, so you adapt a little. I did that (it's not so hard, really) and simply took Bull's Charge to boost my own speed when chasing and causing KD on running foes. This trades some dmg output for stopping power. This is just one solution. You could also take a crippling skill. A hex. You could place traps. There are many ways, you just have to be open to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

There are some things like the not being able to rez, but it's just ridiculous seeing a Mursaat caster group chasing a runner 5 aggro bubbles ahead of them, for 10 radars.

I agree there, that de-aggro problem is a bug. The kiting is an intentional change and not a bug.

garethporlest18 · Nov 23, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

I agree there, that de-aggro problem is a bug. The kiting is an intentional change and not a bug.

Kiting don't bug me cause spirits (I use rit hero) have long range attacks and well nothing runs from me, and monks stop running after a while, although a Forgotten Sage didn't want to so I just gave up on it. Cause it's not every enemy, that's what is weird. I noticed the more enemies you aggro at a time, the higher the chance for a Sage to run. Regardless I rather not bring a snare or KD so I'll just let them run or forget about them and move on. I can out damage any monk healing in PvE mostly so if they follow, well I'll get them eventually.

MegaMouse · Nov 23, 2006, 12:34 PM // 12:34

A lot of times I will only read the first post or even just glance over it to get the gist of what the poster is saying. This time I went and read the whole thing, and the original poster has a few very good arguments. My main character is an original Profecies Elementalist that I truly enjoy playing (I like to watch things walk and run around on fire),letting this bit of info out I have also noticed the extreme lengths that some mobs will go after certian classes of players. I personaly have had several enemies in nightfallen Jahai chase me down even to the res shrin then procede to kill my group as soon as we were resurected which should not happen. There are quite a few flaws within this new AI which should be fixed or at least toned down, as it is extremely hard to complete several quests while the entire map chases you around.

Mega Mouse

Thallandor · Nov 23, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Woah was trying to cap a boss Elite skill in realm of tormet and am reminded how gay the AI is all over again. Only thing i can say is, my frustration level is building up again and i have completed NF once already.

I can really see why "replayablity" isnt a strong selling point for Nightfall.

Time to add more wasted time of my life into the realm of torment again

Weeeeeeeee.

__________________________________________
Why blame Anet for removing the need to farm when you grind to play game normally.

Moa Bird Cultist · Nov 23, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Oddest AI quirk has to be the behaviour of sub lvl 20 Kournan Priests - they will happily run off and leave their group to die. Kiting is all very well, but that's just silly

Corsair Bosuns are another odd one. I have regularly experienced something very similar to 'Aggro Lock II' whereby, the bosun, and only the bosun will folow me to the ends of the earth. If I stop, they will too and more often than not they will just sit there doing nothing unless I actually physically engage them in combat... The most common area this seems to happen in is Barbarous Shore - in fact, after our ill thought out 5 man, half hero group got wiped, except for me and our MM, even the mesmer boss down there acted the same way - chased us all the way through the cave, after which I happily pinned him and Sandstormed him to death with no-one else in range (no green tho

)

Restless Dead in Fahranur do this too, but they will act aggressively when they catch you. The two instances in which the Restless are most fond of doing this are in the passageway that leads to Gedoss Windcutter, with the res shrine. (The most direct route to him coming from Jokanur Diggings.) There are 2 mobs of 2x Relentless Corpse and 1x Restless Dead that spawn there and the Restless are very cagey...

Anyways, thats my experience, hope it helps.

A note about Restless Dead: They have Deathly Swarm, which in my experience, can greatly extend the casters aggro range, (especially if it hits you once you start running, so it may just be that, but it seems strange, nonetheless)

Dragasa · Nov 23, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

i've experienced some strange behavior that hasn't been mentioned. several times after de-flagging my henches, they've run off in the opposite direction. they either run off as a group, or just one monk will take off. the first time i noticed this was in the Desolation. i had them flagged and the party wiped, but i forgot to remove the flag. we ressed at the shrine and the henches immediately started running in the opposite direction of the flag (sissies). it's only happened a few times, and it's easily resolved by flagging my current location until they come back and "regroup". it only becomes a problem when they run off into a mob. i've seen alot of the other strange behavior mentioned here too. the perma-lock can be annoying, having to intentionally wipe the party because you can't rez fallen henches, and the AI crossing the line from kiting to griefing. overall the new AI doesn't bother me, when it works it works well, but when it bugs out it gets a little frustrating.

Amity and Truth · Nov 23, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Opening Post has been updated. Should i have overlooked something, please send me a PM about it. I'd also appreciate it if you could provide glitches in a similiar form as i did.

In short:
Description/What is happening
Why this is a problem
Your suggested solution to this

Thanks again.

Sidra · Nov 23, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

To clarify- both of these bugs happened when skipping the elimination of those Ele-spiker beetles. Although, all they are are water and i think *earth* magic prone, so I don't really see how a non-specifically labeled thing could possibly aggro like that, especially since all the other ones I've killed have aggro'ed like they should every time. Another complaint- the spawning of things from underground. I don't really think it's very plausible, to when you're killing a mob of lets say, those mandragors or those elementalist bugs, have another mob of 8-16 pop out from underground and whipe your party (man, they spike well). It isn't a random spawn either, as I tested in the Seborhin Garden (pre-nightfallen), so I think ANet is controlling those spawns and should take note that they are almost garunteed to completely own you, no matter what the build/how many monks (I always run 1 per 3 people, so 2 monks in my group).

lunksunkunk · Nov 23, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Good re-creation of Heroe AI being retarded as ever. I was in that mission killing droughtlings and when u meet the last boss to fight, my henchies decided to not heal me at all and let me wipe completely. As a result 3 henchies immediately ran around in circles and died when a monster was sitting right in front of them yet they refused to acknowledge his existence. So i flag them away and i told Dunkoro to res ME first. Guess what he does, he ressed everyone BUT me, even though i commanded him to do so. Then when i was the only left to res, he would go near range and then immediately cancel and waste him nrg down to 0. Took his braindead self 5 tries to finally res me. Talhkora did this also when we were inside that cave mission with the kournan archers up top at the end.

Dont even get me started on the Aggro-lock syndrome.
Heres a few ways to re-create the problem in many different areas:

1. Chestrunning in Ice Floe:
Use a mo/r or mo/w w/ SB, run around the area and watch how those mursaat never break aggro. They will follow you across the entire map giving one hell of a time everytime they reach casting range to give u spectral agony and e-surge. Thats not bad, but when u accumulated 8-10 mursaat mesmers, e-surge will wipe u out.

2. Solo-ing Whitmans Folly:
Use whatever solo build here u want, aggro some grawls within the area just straight ahead out of Port Sledge, run away so that you dont aggro too many grawls and watch those grawl crones follow you to no end. When u stop, they stop, doing absolutely nothing. So you figure kill em right? The moment u target them they start running around in circles, literally. It gets so bad to the point where-in they run around so much that somehow they telepathically call upon their buddies with hammers and they all aggro you in the end with around 10-15 or them chasing you.

3. Solo-ing Arborstone:
Use whatever build here if you want. Mostly likely warrior or something that negates cripple. When trying to run across past any of em, youll notice that they eventually give up chasing u right? No, the moment you stop and take one step back, they come after you even if they were out of your radar.

4. Running Tascas Demise:
Running build here, whatever build you prefer. Try running to get to mineral springs, and every group of summit that has a gnasher will begin to follow you non-stop throughout the whole entire map. They will keep up with u even though you have sprint or whatever running skills you use. You rack up nearly 5-6 gnashers all the way to end where the mineral springs portal is at.

5. Mineral Springs, Talus Chute:
Basically any place that has Avicaras, i dont even think i have to illustrate my point here. Pretty much everyone knows about these birds having fast enough speed boosts to even rival dodge and dash. And these guys follow you forever. Until you rezone of course.

There are so many other areas, but i got tired of typing. Anyone who says they havent experienced those problems can take a look themselves. Developers ecspecially should take a look at those areas. unless it was "intended".

Faith Angelis · Nov 23, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Thought I'd go ahead and try to test some of these comments, so I took my Ranger with running build to Mineral Springs. After successfully aggro'ing a group of Avicara, I took off back along a clear path to see if I could shake their aggro.

I ran this test a dozen or so times, all occurances resulted in exactly the same situation:

1. That most of the Avicara broke aggro and returned to their starting position when a distance of 1.5 to 2.5 aggro bubbles was reached from the starting position. They did break pursuit slightly faster if a running skill was used.

2. The Avicara Ardent (Monk) of the group did not break pursuit at all, even at distances of 2 or more radar circles.

3. The Avicara were able to maintain pursuit at a constant distance (just at the edge of my aggro bubble) regardless of running skill used. I was using Storm Chaser, Dodge and Charge! The obvious conclusion is that the NPC was shifting from 100% to 125% and to 133% speed in conjunction with my skills, since he neither caught up or fell behind. The Ardent used no speed buffs of his own.

4. When I stopped, the Ardent would attack but when attacked, kite off in a random direction in large arcs. At this stage, speed buffs allowed me to catch up with him.

5. If the Ardent was killed, upon returning to the starting position of his group, the enemies would be moving towards me when I got into 0.5 to 1 radar range. This also counted for groups without a chasing caster.

I'd be interested to know if anyone else could replicate this experience in other areas, maybe it is continent or area specific as suggested previously...

Chicken Ftw · Nov 23, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Noticing that it's mostly casters that never break aggro as well. Usually monks. Was running a Canthan char to Ascalon earlier so she could start on Protector of Tyria, and some casters never broke aggro. In fact, they kept up with me across entire zones, despite the fact that I was constantly moving 25% faster than normal. Got so annoyed at some Charr Shamans/Overseers that I started to attack them, figuring if they won't stop, I'll just kill them. Problem was, they wanded me a couple times, got off a Bane Signet or Banish, and started heading back to where they came from. I figure, tch, fine, they'll leave me alone now. No - as soon as I start heading towards the next zone again, these red blips appear on radar, heading towards my position... those damned psychic Shamans knew I was in motion again, and decided to stalk me some more. Eventually, I killed them and moved on, but it's just annoying as hell. It's much worse in areas where the enemies are level 24-28, and actually pose a serious threat.

I don't mind enemies chasing me - it's fine. However, if I'm moving 25% faster than normal, and one keeps up with me across an entire zone, there's an issue. What's the point in a speed buff if it does nothing for you, because the enemies refuse to lose aggro? Why do some enemies move at accelerated pace without speed buffs? >_>

Gli · Nov 23, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

RE: Permanent Aggrolock II

I have an anecdote to share, and even a hunch about what's happening.

A few days ago, I noticed I still had a bunch of shiverpeak keys sitting on my ranger and I decided to run around Mineral Springs for a bit to spend them all. I ran through several groups of Stone Summit (on my way through Tasca's Demise) and several groups of Avicara in Mineral Springs proper. Nothing funky so far, everything happened as it always did before, no funny aggro mishaps at all.

The first chest I came upon was guarded by a mixed group of Avicara. No sweat, those are easy unless there's one of the nasty bosses with them. I rushed in, got my prize and rushed out, taking minimal damage. This time, an Avicara Ardent decided to stick with me. I ran and ran and ran and couldn't get rid of it. Then I thought: "Hell, this is a pathetic monk chicken, why am I running?"

So I stopped. It stopped as well, right behind me. I walked up to him. It clucked and repositioned to put itself in more or less the same relative position to my facing as he had before. I shot my bow at it, for all of 3 damage. (I hadn't put points into marksmanship

) It cast Shield of Judgement, ran a few paces and then put himself back into its by now familiar position, behind me, about 7 o'clock.

It struck me that it was acting more as a henchman than an enemy.

I decided to experiment a bit and went back to its group of friends. When I got within a certain distance, they all came for me. Or so I thought. I now think they actually came for my Ardent friend. They sensed he was aggroing an enemy and they rushed to his aid. When I turned back, my friend kept following me, but the others (its 'former' friends) went back home, apparently because they wouldn't stretch beyond a certain distance from their home spot.

Completely proper behaviour, except for the single very confused Ardent, suffering from what I'll be calling 'mistaken partymembership'.

A small definition: 'Mistaken partymembership' causes a mob to consider itself member of a party it doesn't really belong to. This phenomenon does NOT change a mobs hostility status, it merely affects its movement patterns.

And now I'm thinking, perhaps the first type of Permanent Aggrolock has the same basic bug at its base? Perhaps the monsters that come rushing in as soon as players enter the extended area they're allowed to move in (usually a modest distance from their home point, but possibly the whole area for a patrol!) see these players as part of their party. Suppose the oft-mentioned wannabe-rebirthing monk is considered part of the party of enemies, what would/could happen? His monstrous 'mistaken partymembers' might have a permanent sense of aggro pouring off the poor monk, because he himself sets off the 'partymember engaged with the enemy' on a permanent basis, being a hostile unit within his own aggro range! Thus, every time he moves within the extended movement area of the monster party he is inadvertantly considered part of, all the monsters come rushing in because they think one of theirs (the monk) is engaging an enemy (the same monk!).

Thoughts?

WasAGuest · Nov 23, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

I didn't see it mentioned; but the insta-monk aggro which triggers some of the other "side effects" that are listed.

Monk begins to flee instantly (heroes, henchies and mobs) and since the aggro doesn't break off the AI begins it's congo-line style of play.

I understand that "going for the monk" is a vvalid PvP strategy; lets keep it there. Termites and other "creatures" should have no idea what a monk is... this "feature" removes the immersion and illusion of a living world. When all mobs act the same, it's a constant reminder that instead of an adventure filled world, we are battling bots in different skins... further, the AI is unable to adapt to changing situations; which puts the AI into situations as already mentioned.

xiao1985 · Nov 24, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

nice thread

i would like to affirm the strange behavior of kournan priests.... they seem to kite (in the correct direction mind you) whenever a character approaches (scenario: me (dervish) moves in to attack an enemy paragon, and the priest starts to move away)

also, warrior henchmen and fighters seem to be a bit thick and slow in terms of orders... scenario: me moves in to attack on enemy paragon, then noticed a patrol is soon to arrive, and would complicate the matter, so moves away when i am 1.5 aggro bubble away, whereas the hence rushes in and engage the enemy...

scenario 2: i am running away from a mob after engaging since a patrol is coming... all casters follows my orders, yet melee henchmen and heros seem to still be fighting (or got body blocked)

Zehnchu · Nov 24, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

NPC Body blocking

In the quest A Deal's A Deal Palawa Joko will bock block resulting stopping you from attacking a target.

Sidra · Nov 24, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Yeah, the body blocking really does get annoying. Takes away ability to get to minion-swarmed targets and such. Is that an AI bug really, though?

Trvth Jvstice · Nov 24, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

OK, reading some of the earlier posts I was thinking none of this is happening to me, but I see now. The problem is mainly effecting people running thorugh an area to get to chests or a certain boss for green farming or capping.

The way I generally play is to simply kill every group I encounter until I reach my destination. I suppose the difference is if you're questing/miissioning or chest/green farming.

When I engage a group for battle, sure I have to deal with the monk running off, but so far that has just made it easier for me to beat that group of enemies.

P.S. I didn't read most of the posts, so if I'm missing the point of the thread topic, my apologies.

Evilsod · Nov 24, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiao1985

also, warrior henchmen and fighters seem to be a bit thick and slow in terms of orders... scenario: me moves in to attack on enemy paragon, then noticed a patrol is soon to arrive, and would complicate the matter, so moves away when i am 1.5 aggro bubble away, whereas the hence rushes in and engage the enemy...

If your too lazy to simply flag the hench/heros away manually then you've got nothing to complain about.

Remember, hench only stop attacking if you kite things, not flee the battle.

ducktape · Nov 24, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

OK, reading some of the earlier posts I was thinking none of this is happening to me, but I see now. The problem is mainly effecting people running thorugh an area to get to chests or a certain boss for green farming or capping.

The way I generally play is to simply kill every group I encounter until I reach my destination. I suppose the difference is if you're questing/miissioning or chest/green farming.

When I engage a group for battle, sure I have to deal with the monk running off, but so far that has just made it easier for me to beat that group of enemies.

P.S. I didn't read most of the posts, so if I'm missing the point of the thread topic, my apologies.

Actually, I make it a practice to always kill everything in an entire zone, and I have encountered the Permanent Aggrolock and Super Aggro and Endlessly Fleeing Monk stuff just from playing normally. Sometimes if I'm getting my ass kicked, I have to run away, and that's when I sometimes get unlucky and have Permanent Aggrolock on me from one of the enemy casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

hench only stop attacking if you kite things, not flee the battle

If you hit the key that does a 180 and take like two steps fleeing the battle, the henchmen stop attacking immediately and run away with you. Like they cancel the spells they're in the middle of because they follow you to run away, that's how much of a priority it is to them. At least, that's what always works for me, and I'm glad that's not screwed up with the new AI. It seems a lot easier to try and get them to stop attacking if you kite now, where before they would usually ignore you backing off from the enemy and keep hacking away at the enemy.